Striving for Peace in the M.E.

"Striving for Peace in the M.E."

THIS IS an extract of the text of Menachem Begin's famous TV interview soon after his meeting with Jimmy Carter in Washington last week.

GEORGE HERMAN: Has President Carter supported or endorsed in any way your proposals?  Has he put the U.S. Government behind your proposal?

MENACHEM BEGIN: I found goodwill and understanding by President Carter, who has contributed decisively to those dramatic events which now make peace possible in the Middle East.

I did not ask for any commitment by the President.  What I was interested in, as I believe President Sadat is interested, was the goodwill of the U.S.  That we got.  Therefore if I came here a hopeful man, I am leaving a happy man.

GEORGE HERMAN: Didn't they also say that additional steps would be necessary, that this does not go all the way?

MENACHEM BEGIN: No.  Additional steps were mentioned because we are now at the time of very delicate negotiations.  We have actually started negotiations directly face to face.  There are very complicated problems to solve.  Therefore the American endorsement couldn't be complete, of course.  There will be many problems.  For instance, we want a comprehensive peace settlement.  We never initiated, we don't initiate today, a separate peace agreement with Egypt.  We want peace agreement and treaties will all our neighbours to the north, to the south and to the east.  For the time being Jordan has not joined our effort, and Syria even opposes those efforts.  We believe that they will come in.  But it is a very serious problem.  These are the additional steps to be undertaken.

KALB: Could you tell us, Sir, what does autonomy, self-rule mean?

MENACHEM BEGIN: It means what it says, self-rule.  In other words the people will have the possibility to conduct their own affairs through their own elected men.

HERMAN: Even if they elect Yasser Arafat?

MENACHEM BEGIN: Well, I don't think they will elect particularly that man.  But of course, no negotiations between Israel and the so-called P.L.O. can take place…Of course we cannot know whom they are going to elect.  But I do believe that those who have a completely negative attitude, a destructible attitude, will not be elected.  I don't think they will be candidates.

BEECHER: If something like this formula should be negotiated, would you exclude the possibility that after years of Israel and the residents of the West Bank living harmoniously together a separate nation would emerge there?

MENACHEM BEGIN: No, on the contrary, I think we shall live together in Judea and Samaria and in the Gaza district.  This is our striving all the time.

BEECHER: But you would see this arrangement in perpetuity, with the possibility of a nation emerging there?

MENACHEM BEGIN: There can always be a review.  But I wouldn't like to go into detail, because, as I said, the first man to hear from me should be President Sadat.

HERMAN: Have you had any direct or indirect contact with President Sadat recently?

MENACHEM BEGIN: We have permanent contact through the American Ambassador.  I sent President Sadat a message before I left for Washington, informing him about my journey to the U.S. and about the talks to take place between President Carter and myself.  Nothing was done behind his back.  He knows perfectly well what is going on—and then I will be going to Egypt and meet with President Sadat in order to inform him about the contents of our talks in Washington, and also of course bringing our ideas concerning the peace-making process.

HERMAN: Have you contacted any other Arab Governments, either indirectly or directly?

MENACHEM BEGIN: No.

KALB: Is there a difference, Sir, between your concept of an autonomous region on the West Bank and a homeland such as President Carter suggested many months ago?

MENACHEM BEGIN: Anybody can choose his own language.  I prefer to say autonomy, in Greek.  In translated English, it is self-rule: A very good translation.  But why should you call it West Bank?  The West Bank is the whole territory from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean.  I think the proper language is Judea and Samaria.

KALB: Does self-rule also mean self-determination?

MENACHEM BEGIN: I think one can say they are synonymous.

BEECHER: Mr. Begin, when you're in Egypt talking to President Sadat, do you think that there'll be some agreement that will actually come out of your brief visit there on this next trip?

MENACHEM BEGIN: I hope so.  And I have a suggestion to make to President Sadat.  This I can publish in advance.  If President Carter should invite President Sadat and myself to come to Washington, then we shall be in a circle of friendship and faith—a Christian President, a Moslem leader, and a Jewish Prime Minister—and we can announce to the world Pax Vobiscum, Shalom Aleichem, Salem Aleicum, all of which means peace unto you.  I think it will be quite an event in the annals of mankind, in our generation.

KALB: Is the peace that you speak of a peace for all of the Middle East?

MENACHEM BEGIN: Yes, Sir.  This is our striving.

KALB: And would you seek a declaration of principles that would be applied in the negotiation between Israel-Egypt, Israel-Syria, Israel-Jordan?

MENACHEM BEGIN: That will be part of the negotiation with the President of Egypt because the President of course wants to have a peace treaty.  He also told me that he represents the Arab cause, and he would like to see a solution to the problem of the Palestinian Arabs.  I am going to propose such a solution to him.  And then we shall negotiate.  If, as I said, we reach an agreement, then let us pronounce it to the world.

HERMAN: One of the crucial emotional issues in this whole question seems to be the question of East Jerusalem.  When President Sadat spoke before the Knesset he talked about Jerusalem as an Open City.  When I questioned him on "Face the Nation" a few weeks ago, I said, "How about East Jerusalem?" and as you may know, he said: "For sure, under Arab control."

Now, if he feels so strongly about it, and if the Saudi Arabians feel so strongly about the Arab Holy Places in East Jerusalem, what is your concept of what will eventually happen to East Jerusalem?

MENACHEM BEGIN: Would you accept the principle that I feel strongly about Jerusalem?

HERMAN: Certainly.  That is why I am asking you.

MENACHEM BEGIN: Well, Jerusalem is as it has been the Capital City not only for our State, but of the Jewish People for three thousand years, since the days of King David.

HERMAN: And a major stumbling block to peace perhaps.

MENACHEM BEGIN: No, no.  It is not going to be a stumbling block at all.  On the contrary, it is the City of Peace, as I said in the presence of President Sadat, London is a city, Paris is a city, Cairo is a city.  They are not going to be divided, why should Jerusalem be divided?  Nobody in his sense would suggest that barbed wire should again divide this city into two parts. Jerusalem is one City, the Capital City of our State and of our People, with completely free access to all the Holy Shrines of every religion.  Moslem, Jewish and Christian, as President Sadat himself learned when he visited Jerusalem.

BEECHER: Let us pursue the security issue.  We understand your desire that any and all peace agreements stand on their own feet, without dependence on outside guarantees, assurances or commitments.  Have you, on this recent trip, discussed with President Carter the possibility of a mutual security treaty with the United States?

MENACHEM BEGIN: No, we did not discuss it at all.  About guarantees I would like to say that in the whole world there is no guarantee that can guarantee an international guarantee.  We have the experience of Czechoslovakia in 1938, the Tripartite Declaration regarding the Middle East, which never prevented any war, a Declaration that the international community will never tolerate the closing of the Tiran Straits.  Again they were closed, and nobody moved.  We had to fight not only for the freedom of navigation, but for our survival.  Therefore we don't rely on guarantees, we don't ask for guarantees.  We can sustain our own independence, and we shall.

The question of a security pact between the U.S. and Israel is a question to be dealt with as sovereign states should do, without connection with the peace-making process.

If the U.S. should find it necessary or possible to suggest a security pact between itself and Israel, we shall be very willing to consider it.

HERMAN: In this new mood of negotiation, this new momentum towards peace, is everything negotiable with other countries, for example the Golan Heights with Syria?

MENACHEM BEGIN: We always said that everything is negotiable, except the destruction of Israel.  Everything is negotiable.

KALB: Could you tell us, Sir, whether your policy is still to encourage Jewish settlements on the West Bank, even within the framework of self-rule?

MENACHEM BEGIN: I don't have to encourage them.  There are settlements.  It is the perfect right of the Jewish People to settle in Judea and Samaria, and it will be the right of the Arabs in Judea and Samaria to settle in Israel.  There will be symmetric justice.  Everybody will be free to settle.  It will be free movement.

HERMAN: Mr. Prime Minster, how do you evaluate the role of the Cairo meeting?

MENACHEM BEGIN: Well, I think it is a very useful conference.  Our friends met with their Egyptian counterparts.  They were received, by the way, with the warmest hospitality possible.

This, too, is part of the peace-making process, coming together, liquidating prejudice, seeing each other, seeing that we can live together, work together and make peace together.

Quotes:

* KALB: Could you tell us, Sir, what does autonomy, self-rule mean?

MENACHEM BEGIN: It means what it says, self-rule.  In other words the people will have the possibility to conduct their own affairs through their own elected men.

HERMAN: Even if they elect Yasser Arafat?

MENACHEM BEGIN: Well, I don't think they will elect particularly that man.  But of course, no negotiations between Israel and the so-called P.L.O. can take place…Of course we cannot know whom they are going to elect.  But I do believe that those who have a completely negative attitude, a destructible attitude, will not be elected.  I don't think they will be candidates.

BEECHER: If something like this formula should be negotiated, would you exclude the possibility that after years of Israel and the residents of the West Bank living harmoniously together a separate nation would emerge there?

MENACHEM BEGIN: No, on the contrary, I think we shall live together in Judea and Samaria and in the Gaza district.  This is our striving all the time.

BEECHER: But you would see this arrangement in perpetuity, with the possibility of a nation emerging there?

MENACHEM BEGIN: There can always be a review.  But I wouldn't like to go into detail, because, as I said, the first man to hear from me should be President Sadat.

* HERMAN: Have you had any direct or indirect contact with President Sadat recently?

MENACHEM BEGIN: We have permanent contact through the American Ambassador.  I sent President Sadat a message before I left for Washington, informing him about my journey to the U.S. and about the talks to take place between President Carter and myself.  Nothing was done behind his back.  He knows perfectly well what is going on—and then I will be going to Egypt and meet with President Sadat in order to inform him about the contents of our talks in Washington, and also of course bringing our ideas concerning the peace-making process.

HERMAN: Have you contacted any other Arab Governments, either indirectly or directly?

MENACHEM BEGIN: No.

KALB: Is there a difference, Sir, between your concept of an autonomous region on the West Bank and a homeland such as President Carter suggested many months ago?

MENACHEM BEGIN: Anybody can choose his own language.  I prefer to say autonomy, in Greek.  In translated English, it is self-rule: A very good translation.  But why should you call it West Bank?  The West Bank is the whole territory from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean.  I think the proper language is Judea and Samaria.

KALB: Does self-rule also mean self-determination?

MENACHEM BEGIN: I think one can say they are synonymous.

* BEECHER: Mr. Begin, when you're in Egypt talking to President Sadat, do you think that there'll be some agreement that will actually come out of your brief visit there on this next trip?

MENACHEM BEGIN: I hope so.  And I have a suggestion to make to President Sadat.  This I can publish in advance.  If President Carter should invite President Sadat and myself to come to Washington, then we shall be in a circle of friendship and faith—a Christian President, a Moslem leader, and a Jewish Prime Minister—and we can announce to the world Pax Vobiscum, Shalom Aleichem, Salem Aleicum, all of which means peace unto you.  I think it will be quite an event in the annals of mankind, in our generation.

KALB: Is the peace that you speak of a peace for all of the Middle East?

MENACHEM BEGIN: Yes, Sir.  This is our striving.

* HERMAN: One of the crucial emotional issues in this whole question seems to be the question of East Jerusalem.  When President Sadat spoke before the Knesset he talked about Jerusalem as an Open City.  When I questioned him on "Face the Nation" a few weeks ago, I said, "How about East Jerusalem?" and as you may know, he said: "For sure, under Arab control."

Now, if he feels so strongly about it, and if the Saudi Arabians feel so strongly about the Arab Holy Places in East Jerusalem, what is your concept of what will eventually happen to East Jerusalem?

MENACHEM BEGIN: Would you accept the principle that I feel strongly about Jerusalem?

HERMAN: Certainly.  That is why I am asking you.

MENACHEM BEGIN: Well, Jerusalem is as it has been the Capital City not only for our State, but of the Jewish People for three thousand years, since the days of King David.

HERMAN: And a major stumbling block to peace perhaps.

MENACHEM BEGIN: No, no.  It is not going to be a stumbling block at all.  On the contrary, it is the City of Peace, as I said in the presence of President Sadat, London is a city, Paris is a city, Cairo is a city.  They are not going to be divided, why should Jerusalem be divided?  Nobody in his sense would suggest that barbed wire should again divide this city into two parts. Jerusalem is one City, the Capital City of our State and of our People, with completely free access to all the Holy Shrines of every religion.  Moslem, Jewish and Christian, as President Sadat himself learned when he visited Jerusalem.

* BEECHER: Let us pursue the security issue.  We understand your desire that any and all peace agreements stand on their own feet, without dependence on outside guarantees, assurances or commitments.  Have you, on this recent trip, discussed with President Carter the possibility of a mutual security treaty with the United States?

MENACHEM BEGIN: No, we did not discuss it at all.  About guarantees I would like to say that in the whole world there is no guarantee that can guarantee an international guarantee.  We have the experience of Czechoslovakia in 1938, the Tripartite Declaration regarding the Middle East, which never prevented any war, a Declaration that the international community will never tolerate the closing of the Tiran Straits.  Again they were closed, and nobody moved.  We had to fight not only for the freedom of navigation, but for our survival.  Therefore we don't rely on guarantees, we don't ask for guarantees.  We can sustain our own independence, and we shall.

The question of a security pact between the U.S. and Israel is a question to be dealt with as sovereign states should do, without connection with the peace-making process.

If the U.S. should find it necessary or possible to suggest a security pact between itself and Israel, we shall be very willing to consider it.

HERMAN: In this new mood of negotiation, this new momentum towards peace, is everything negotiable with other countries, for example the Golan Heights with Syria?

MENACHEM BEGIN: We always said that everything is negotiable, except the destruction of Israel.  Everything is negotiable.

* KALB: Could you tell us, Sir, whether your policy is still to encourage Jewish settlements on the West Bank, even within the framework of self-rule?

MENACHEM BEGIN: I don't have to encourage them.  There are settlements.  It is the perfect right of the Jewish People to settle in Judea and Samaria, and it will be the right of the Arabs in Judea and Samaria to settle in Israel.  There will be symmetric justice.  Everybody will be free to settle.  It will be free movement.

HERMAN: Mr. Prime Minster, how do you evaluate the role of the Cairo meeting?

MENACHEM BEGIN: Well, I think it is a very useful conference.  Our friends met with their Egyptian counterparts.  They were received, by the way, with the warmest hospitality possible.

This, too, is part of the peace-making process, coming together, liquidating prejudice, seeing each other, seeing that we can live together, work together and make peace together.